The MxU Worship Podcast

 Hello and welcome to the MxU Worship podcast hosted by Stephen Brewster. Each episode features great conversations between Stephen and all kinds of worship leaders from the most prolific songwriters, from prominent churches, to folks you may have never heard of. Either way, we hope that these resources and conversations will encourage, equip, and empower you to be the best worship leader you can be.

Make sure to follow and subscribe to this podcast too, so you can stay up to date on all of our. And other resources. Let's get to the interview. Welcome to today's episode. I'm so excited you're with us. And today we have a special guest, Phil Wickham. I'm so stoked for you to hear this conversation. Phil talks about identity.

He talks about losing his voice in 2014 and what he learned through that process, and also the, the power of prayer and how it's changed his personal walk and helped him create a new tool and resource for, for people through that. So with no further a. Here is our conversation with Phil Wickham. Phil, I'm so glad you're with us today.

Thanks for hanging out with us today on the podcast. It's gonna be fun. Of course, man. Thanks for having me. So you started leading worship in the youth group? I did. Tell me about those. Tell me about those days, man. What was that like? Well, I bet there's quite a few worst splitters out there that can relate.

There's just like that. That junior high youth group room, like up in the corner of the, of the church, you know? Yep. And some reason just smells like a gym, like a sweaty gym. But you don't know why. Cause no one works out in there. And uh, it was amazing, man. I grew up in a family of worship leaders, my parents.

Who are singing at church and, and my, my dad was writing songs for church since I was born. And so that was very, it was very normal for me to, like, the idea of leading people in worship and singing songs about God, um, is ki it was more normal to me than like, You know, listen to Michael Jackson in the, you know, or something like that, right?

It was just like, that's what music was for. And so when we moved from Orange County to San Diego, when I was 12, my dad gave me guitar. I fell in love with it. And, uh, later that year, I was just, I was hacking away, singing, singing. I could sing all your love forever, with about 12 kids on a Saturday night junior high You.

That's awesome. What do you think, like today, obviously it's no longer 12 kids and you're not hacking at it anymore. You're, you've become I still hack pretty hard. My guitar is, is like freaking worked. I, I have a friend who, uh, is a worship leader, and I, he always says that his guitar is more like a necklace.

It's just there for, for show. But yeah, I call him my, my guitars like a shaker. I, I just, it's like I'm, I'm the glorified guy, just like, just like adding a little percussion, you know? So what's the same today as back then when you were, when you were in junior high leading worship for 12 kids? I mean, obviously it's, the scale's very different now, but what, what's the same man?

This is such, this is the, the churchy answer. It's, but it's true. The Lord, the ones I'm singing to is the same. You know what I mean? That's, that's when I, when I, when you first, when you asked me immediately, it's like, well, the goal. and, and the, the person that it's all directed to is the same, which is the goal is to.

Um, I mean, and what an honor and what a responsibility it is, but God, God has given me, whether it's 12 people in a junior high youth group room or Sunday morning at a church or in a, on a tour, in an arena or whatever. It's just given me and many listening to this podcast, this incredible responsibility and opportunity, uh, to lead his people in worship and to remind.

To remind the church who God is, so that it incites new response of praise and adoration and wanting to get close to Jesus and helping pe people discover God's love and presence and nearness for the first time. And so that, that does, that hasn't changed. And also the song that we sing and hasn't changed because God doesn't change his love, his the story.

It's still beautiful and amazing and blows my mind every, every new time. Honestly, every time I speak it out, I take a time on stage to talk about the cross, the empty grave and what it means for us. It just, it never stops, just melting my heart and blowing my mind away and, uh, I just love singing about it.

I love that man. That's so, that's so good. And what do you wish you knew back then? That you've learned over doing this now for, for a little while. Like obviously there's probably so many lessons that you've learned, but what's that? That you know, a lot of our listeners are gonna be worship leaders. So what's that one thing that you're like, man, I just wish I could depart this in people.

Well, it's like, that's a hard question cuz I had to go through the things I'm really pumped about that I've, I. I've been able to grasp and grow in over the years. Yeah. It's, it's like I couldn't just tell myself them and then have like received them like a sponge. It's like I had to go through the right, the anxiety of feeling like, gosh, I was such a fricking

I was a cocky guy. You know, like I and I, and I'm thinking about, oh, I wish I got man. Lord, help me be humble there. Like, and, and then I, some girls started talking to me in youth group and so it's like, Hey, I think I'm something cool. You know what I. And, uh, right, right. But that's all stuff you gotta walk through and then feel the weirdness about it later or, or even, uh, like losing my voice and, and having to go through kind of a year of kind of a hiatus and, and getting my voice back and getting surgery.

That, that was God. I almost, I feel like that was a gift from God now just to teach me so much about my value to him. that I didn't have to s I didn't have to try to seek men's approval. Um, and, uh, right. And all that stuff. And, but again, if I went to my 12 year old self and told my, and told myself all these things without the context of those experiences, I, I picture myself rolling my eyes at myself, , you know, like Yeah, I know.

Right, right. You know? Totally. Yeah. I mean, but I guess so I guess if there's one thing that like, I could, like, it's like this is a skill I wish I had, I wish I, I, I wrote songs. I wish I, I understood songwriting. As a 12 year old the same way as I do now, that would've been helpful. Right. And what do you think that is?

What, what do you understand about songwriting now that, um, excuse me. Um, I would say, um, I'm way, I'm way less worried about, be about coming across as an artist or what's my expression? Um, I'm way less, uh, man, how would I answer this? Sorry. Let me start. Yeah, yeah, you're great. As far as songwriting now, um, I mean, artistry is so important and, and we need a couple creativity and artistry as worship leaders with service, you know, and I think when I was younger I was always more worried about, uh, maybe what people thought about the song or what friends, if friends thought it was cool or all, I don't know.

All, all these things that kind of jumbled, right? What, what is God's actual calling in my life and what has he called me to do? And to. Um, and some people are called to fall on be artists and be out there and play in clubs and go for it. But the older I I've gotten, the more experiences I've gone through, the more I feel like God has shed away.

Um, maybe selfish ambition or wanting to seek like my peer's approval or whatever that is, and, and just God has revealed my own heart to me that he's given me, which is just to write songs for the. Um, and, uh, and I love doing it. It's the most satisfying thing I can do as a writer. I write other songs. I write songs for my wife.

I write Christmas songs and that Sure. But what I really am, am, am, am looking for is to write songs for the church. And I think I've got, the thing that has made me, um, grow in that the most is just experience and moments of like, Of being, of having all these moments to visualize what a song could do in a room or in a situation.

And I think that's my most powerful tool now that I bring into a songwriter. It is not like my sense of melody, though. Maybe that's, that's grown over the years or not. You know, obviously my understanding of the word of God has grown. That's a huge tool, but I think for writing a songs for church is, for me, I'm such a visualizing person, is to be able to visualize moments.

and really, um, add that kind of instinct into my songwriting of like, I even have people's faces. Like there's a guy named Greg Laurie, who's a, who's an evangelist pastor. Oh. Oh yeah. So he's one guy that's like, man, he's just like a man's man. Like, get people saved. And so I visualize leading a, leading a song when, when he's in the room.

It's like, and I know what songs he'll sing with and I know what songs he'll kind of be like, yeah, I agree with that, . But you know, but then I think of other people that are more emotive. I've, I have a couple people in my mind it's like, man, if they were in the room, would they sing this? And if they were in the room, would they join in?

And, and if we were in, uh, if we were at a youth camp and like, and so I can go to the a hundred youth camps I've been at, it's like, and imagine the song's there. Right. That's so, uh, bringing those experiences and that instinct, it, those experiences have built an instinct, I think, um, that isn't flaw, that is flawed.

Obviously, it's not always perfect, but yeah. Um, it really helps me kind of like, okay, I, even though maybe this is more satisfying to thing for me, I, I think this might serve the moment better and maybe this is, feels fresher or more poetic. I don't know, I can, I can picture being there at Harvest. Harvest in the morning and just, man, I just think saying this, saying Holy is the Lord at the end is gonna work better.

You know? So bringing that experience and to be visualize that in songwriting is, I think is the, the biggest tool over the years that has grown. . That's, that's so awesome and so powerful and, and I'm sure helpful for, for, you know, the, the worship leaders who are writers as well at their local church right now.

Um, we were talking before we, we started recording the podcast just about, um, the Bible Recap podcast. And I think it's so important that like, I think it's a missing component as I talk to worship leaders around the country. Do you wanna, I think you said Bible, just FY Bible. You said Bible recap and it's Bible Project, project, project.

I. I would imagine you wanna say that, right? No, no, no. I definitely wanna say that, right. ? Um. Before we started recording, we were talking about the Bible project and the podcast and how you're using that to, as, as like, learning and, and developing it. It really blows my mind when I talk to worship leaders all over the country.

How few are spending a devoted amount of time in the word before they go into a right. When you, how do you balance your personal revelation with being able to. To that, all those audiences that you just talked about and just processed through. Like where, where does that, where does that line live? I think worship leaders often, um, sell themselves short a little bit.

Obviously they're not like, you know, especially the way churches are run some, sometimes it's like the Moses model of the church where it's like the head guy and mm-hmm. . I grew up growing up in churches like that and known amazing leaders. And then there's like the more of the group kind of community led board led thing, which is beautiful.

Um, but, and I'm guilty. I've been guilty of it in my life too, but it's like, let leave it to like the real scholars to kind of come down from the mountain. And, and, and bring me the word and not like, take it upon myself. It says in the scripture study to show th self approved unto God a work man that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And that's not just a word for pastors. That's the word for the whole church. Yeah. And, uh, and I have found, as I've, I've brought, I grew up in a really beautiful, um, kind of church tradition that started in the sixties, seventies called Calvary Chapel. And they, they put a huge emphasis mm-hmm. on teaching of the word of God.

Um, and uh, and I'm so thankful for that. Uh, but I re I've realized the more I learn, I realize the less I know. You know, it's like, whoa, there is just so much to dissect and meditate on and understand and, and, and apply to myself and apply to the world and humanity. And, and what do we, what kind of prayers do we need to pray?

What kind of prayers are, are, are biblically led? And what kind of, what kind of, what did Jesus really come to do and how do we put that into new language? All that stuff. And I, I think, like I said, I started, but I think worship leaders sell themselves short as like, I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be a facilitator of the presence, but I'll let someone else bring the word.

You know? And I think, yeah, I think the, on the biggest tool for us is worship leaders and songwriters, at least, at least equally as big as knowing your craft equal, you know, as, as all the, all the practical. Is to be a, a student of the word of God. To know when you're, when you are, when you are singing, man, I'm trying to think of a song.

Uh, how great is our God, you know, you're, you're, you're leading that for your church mm-hmm. and, and you're, and you're going through song and, and Psalms are coming to mind. Um, where, where it's, David is singing a similar thing and, and images of Revelation are coming to mind of, of how everybody's gonna be singing that song forever.

And then, and then be, and then even after that it's like, man, Jesus, you did so much for that to be the end goal. Thank you. You are so great for, for like the story of the Bible to be infiltrating your worship leading and the story of the Bible to be infiltrating your songwriting. And for, you know, and I'm still learning this, but you know, I think a lot of worship leaders, there's some lingo that we use, like the presence, you know, that's like in more like charismatic things and, and, and anointed the word anointed and, and.

and all, all this stuff, gifting and, and kingdom and, and like it for us to have like a continually um, growing understanding of what all these words mean is gon is going to be such a huge service to our church through songwriting and through pastorship. Um, cuz we, I, I think worship leaders need to look at themselves, not just as like the musician.

That, that get people's hearts ready for the scripture. But as fellow pastors, but maybe not pastors in, in exigence of the word, but pastors in, in bringing people into the, into a close, a communal intimacy with God and a communal understanding more of who he is and, and to write songs that, that echo that, you know, and, and I, I know some seminary friends.

Like even, and I love it. Like even my brother, my brother Evan, he's a pastor. He's been, he's gone through schooling and he's, he's just brilliant the way he can. He can read a 500 page textbook. Yes, for sure. , he can read a 500 page textbook and. Talk infinitely about it. Afterwards, I could read a five, a 500 page textbook, and I'm like, I think here I can give you the gist.

It's about God. You know what I mean? Right. and uh Right, right. And, and so it's amazing. Now the songs he's writing, it's like he's wants to pour in all these thoughts and ideas, and I think it's beautiful. Um, but sometimes, like Evan, I don't even have context for what you're saying right now. You know, like you gotta Right.

You gotta unpack that a little bit more for me, bro. Right. Uh, but it's just simplify that I think is really important. . Um, cuz what is, sorry I'm talking so long, but last thing. Um, no, you're good. Uh, what is the in when, in Paul's letter? Uh, I'm not gonna say it perfectly cuz it's, it's not I'm, but it's, uh, teaching and, and encouraging each other in psalms of him spiritual songs, you know?

Um, that's like our calling as worship leaders. It's like to teach and to encourage. Totally. You. , like these songs are supposed to teach as well. Um, and not, not just to cultivate intimacy. And, uh, I I think it's a beautiful kind of challenge to kind of try to couple both those things is cultivate a Yeah, I love you.

God's song with a wow. I'm, I'm, I'm understanding the cross more in a bigger way because of this song. Right. That's so good. That is so good. Um, so you mentioned, uh, when you lost your voice in 2014, like a little bit. Like, how did you even process those emotions? Like, I'm sure it was anxiety and fear and you know, like how did, how did you, you know, you've written songs, you've wrote, you've, you've been leading songs in front of people for so long.

I'm sure part of your identity even got tied up in a little bit of, of what you were doing just in a natural way. How did you process that season? Um, for sure. Identity tied up with it, which is rightly start. We are, we were, we were absolutely, we were humans created to work. I don't think it's even wrong for your identity to get tied up into it, but there's a point where it does get unhealthy, where it's like your sense of value gets tied into it and without.

You're like, who am I? You know? Um, yeah, and that's how I felt and sounds a little dramatic, honestly, looking back to it. And, uh, but there is something about having to cancel a whole tour and cancel six months worth of worth of events that I was supposed to play at and have to get surgery. And the doctors saying, Hey, be, be ready for your life to kind of change on the work side of things.

You might not have the endurance, you might not be able to do like the hour long sets anymore and all that stuff. And was just like, wow. , this is kind of a deal. And, and I have to get surgery. And I then it, it's really was in the silence, like the three or four week silence. I had to No talking, no singing.

After a couple days, um, it gets, I was depressed and frustrated and like, really? And like, what if I, you know, all those thoughts like, what if I can't do that? Like, how do, what does, what am I gonna do for a job? And, and, but really the, I, I, I kind of got to the root of depress. Through this moment where, uh, I was playing at this conference, it's, it's called Catalyst.

Oh, it's supposed to play Catalyst West Coast. It's a bunch of church leaders. And, uh, I couldn't, yeah, cuz the surgery was happening and so they said, Hey, can you just write a quick letter? We're gonna read it from stage and we'll pray for you. And I thought, wow, what a, that's so sweet. You know? And. . And then as I was gonna sit down and write a letter, I was like, Hey, what's the conference on?

And they're like, it's on identity. I was like, huh. And so I started writing just, and I was, I was planning five sentences, you know, like, Hey guys, this is what's going on. Thanks for your prayer. I heard it's on identity and I just stopped about identity. Um, and I just felt like the, it was one of the three or four moments in my life where it was such, such a, like a weighty, beautiful, heavy moment in this presence of God where I just, it.

It was overwhelming. And, and I remember I steers tears started running down my face and I was kind of like even shaking. Like it was, it felt very, very holy moment. Wow. And, uh, and I was sitting, I remember it so perfectly. I was sitting in my little side room in my house and just weep, like, started weeping and didn't even know why.

And it's like, and, and I, and I, I really, well, I didn't, I mean, is it, you would think it was the holy, it wasn't like I heard God's voice, but in my heart it was so strong. It's like, who am. Who like, and I remember saying out loud, it's like, you're God. It's like, but who am I to you? And I was like, father, you're my, you're my father.

And he's like, so what does that make you? I just, I just remember that those, that being like throbbing to me, it's like makes me a child. And uh, and then I just felt such an awareness of, in a huge way of what it means to be god's. I mean, not fully, I'm still learning, but what it meant to be God's child.

And I just started thinking about the stars and the, and the billions and trillions of galaxies all held in the hand of this mighty, eternal transcendent being. And yet would like sink down into this little piece of dirt called earth and say, I love you. Call me Father. I want you, I want you to be my Thanksgiving Christmas morning family member, like you are an heir of my house.

Like you're not just like a servant in my house that I like. You are heir, fellow heir with Jesus of everything and I've given you everything you need And, and, and I was just so aware of. in a new way of the way he thinks about me. And like all the, the depression and frustration I realized had come from.

How much I, I, I loved and relied on like people clapping and saying, good job to me in what I do. Right. And I was kind of lying to myself probably, uh, up until that point. Just not, or just trying to not even thinking about it, you know? Yeah. And I just felt God kind of started, shed that away and it's still a shed away work, but my life did change from that moment.

And I, there's a freedom in what I. and in the way I write and the way, and in my whole ministry ever since that moment, uh, that I'm so thankful for. That's awesome. And, and, uh, and so I just started weeping and writing out this letter and to Catalyst, and they read it and it was, and they, they, they read it and they're like, Hey, you gotta come up.

We've gotta pray for you in person. And it was a really special moment and I, and I, it was crazy. It really moved my heart from a. of like, what do I like? Depression, frustration, like, why are you doing this? Like, why is this happening? Can't you like just heal it? You know? Um, right to, right. Like I was, I had gotten so excited, um, about whatever God had for me because, uh, it's like if you love me like that, and if you have all power and you're holding it all, then like, if there's some.

If you wanna take my voice away, then I'm so excited for what's on the other side. Cause it's gonna be better than what I thought I was supposed to do. Right. You know, it's like it changes your whole perspective. It's like, do what you want, your will be done. And, um, I'm, I'm thankful I am singing again. But, uh, and, uh, yeah, that, that was a beautiful moment in my life and really a bench, uh, transitional moment for me as a, as a leader and as a, as a worship.

What an amazing story. And I think there's probably a lot of people listening right now. They're, it, it, it may not be their voice, but there's something that they found their identity attached to and they're wondering what's on the other side of this, this moment. Whether it's a, a moment with depression or mental health or, or just anxiety, like trying to figure out what's next.

And it's just what a great reminder that God's God's got us. And whether it's, whether we, um, Move forward doing the thing we've always done, or he's got a new thing for us that, that he's still God and he's still our father. That's so, so awesome. You just wrote a book, . What's the biggest difference between writing a book and, and writing songs?

It's longer, it's way longer. , way more words. Um, yeah. Yeah. It's a book. It's like a dev, it's a devotional with like anecdotes and personal stories and, uh, it really, it's called on our knees and it's, uh, it's coming out in September. I don't know when whoever's listening to this. In September of 2023. I don't know when you're listening to this, but that's when it's out.

Maybe it's out now. Um, but it's called On our Knees and it was inspired by a song mine called Battle Belongs. And I wrote that song unbeknownst like I didn't know. The story got had for it. I, I wasn't going through a huge battle, but I remember writing it with my buddy Brian Johnson and both of us just kind of like taking a, a moment back, like, there's, there's a story in this song, we don't know what it is.

And, and that was the end of 2019 and 2020 rolls around and, and stuff started happening. That was really weird and out of the ordinary. And um, yeah, this song still wasn't out, but it became like me and my. Uh, little encouragement song, like my kids would want me to hum it to them, sing it to them before bed.

And I was singing around the house. It was like when, when another, another thing would get locked down or another. My kids were crying about missing friends or whatever. Like out here in California, it's just like, right. . It just was like, they're like, can we sing that song? It was just a beautiful thing for us.

And then when the song came out, it seemed like that that kind of story was echoing in other families and communities. Mm-hmm. and, and, uh, over the next six months, it was just, it was, it's just still is. It was overwhelming in it such a sweet way. Uh, all the stories that came in about that song being s. Um, in all situ, like in, in birthing rooms, in hospital rooms, in grave sites, right?

And, um, in anxiety moments in church communities, um, being sung in the online church, it just like when people sang the song was just really had become their, their song in the, in the fight. And I was just, So moved by the faith of so many people and stories of, of prayer really working and that song encouraging people to like get on your knees and fight in prayer.

And, uh, and then I started traveling again once things started opening up in early, uh, or in late 2020 and early 2021. And that song was just, when we'd sing it, it was just such a faith moment and I was so moved. Um, so moved by the faith of people singing out that song and gives more stories. So all that being said, um, I just felt the Holy Spirit through all that.

Uh, using all these people that were connecting with my song to challenge me, um, in my prayer life. Uh, I've always believed in the power of prayer. It's a part of my life. I talk to God, I've all, my whole life I have, but just like asking questions that I think I need to ask, like, why, why don't I pray for healing more?

Like when I hear someone sick or when I hear someone, like, what am I afraid of? Am I afraid of a no? Am I afraid of getting let down? Like. Why isn't my first go-to to talk to God? And, and if, if I really believe that created the universe, loves me and knows all, and sees all and is with me and says, says, asking you will receive like in the name of Jesus and according to my will, like.

Why isn't my go-to more often? And I, I was like almost ashamed to kind of even have to ask myself those questions, but it was just me being honest and now I'm not. Cuz um, now that I've written this book and talked, talked about it with so many people, it's like , it seems to connect with a lot of people even in, in ministry and leadership.

It's like, yeah, it's like, anyway, so I went on a journey through the scriptures and just wanna reignite my faith and my heart and grow in, in prayer and, uh, I didn't know it was gonna be a book. And then, uh, Caleb. Who's publishing books now? They, they asked if I had a book in me and what's going on, and I told 'em that's what I've been doing.

They're like, wanna see if there's something in there for other people? And, and then we started actually writing it. Me and this guy, Matt Litten. And, uh, and I've never, that experience is different than anything I've done, but, um, it was really life changing and I, and I hope it in my prayer life is gonna be different forever.

And I hope it does the same thing for other people. Right. And it's so, it's so interesting. Sometimes God puts things in front of us that. You, you wrote a book and obviously the hope is that other people have an experience with God through that book and through, through what happens with that. But it's beautiful the way that it actually impacts and changes your own personal life too.

Like your, you said your prayer life will always be different and mm-hmm. , um, you know, it's just, it's just fun to watch how God use. The, the, the things in ministry that sometimes we think are for other people that end up being just for us too. Yes. And not just for us, but for us as well. So it's like all every time.

Right. Every time. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, over and over again. It's just, it, it, it's, it's like his, every, everything that he brings us through is a tool that he puts in the toolbox and a part of the journey. Mm-hmm. . So at the end you're like, oh my gosh, all of this worked out together. It's funny how the Bible said that, and now it's true.

Yeah. So it's really, it's beautiful. Really, really cool. If you were, if you were gonna, um, encourage, oh, the worship leader, part-time worship leader. Churches is trying to, you know, come out of Covid now and people still want to be online and, and you know, they're getting up every, every Sunday morning with their volunteer worship team.

What would you, what would you tell them today to encourage them? How would, how would you tell 'em to keep going? Well, I, something I've been thinking about recently is just, How short life is like it real. If sometimes it feels like it's Dr, it's trudging, drudging along, and it's like, it's never gonna change.

And I get that feeling. Um, but really it's like David says, it's like life is like a vapor. You know what I mean? And I think I've been meditating on that recently about choices. I'm making even, even small things about putting my phone down because my kids are all playing and like, why don't I just, I could do this later on my phone.

I can, I'm gonna be with them right now. Right. . So all that being said is that I, I think this idea of life being short and, and God is just calling us to be faithful, you know what I mean? And that that's not like a, it's not necessarily like the prettiest or like, I mean, I guess some people it's the sexy answer or whatever, you know, but to be faithful , um, is, I think he's sometimes underrated.

When people are like right in a world where it's like, chase your dreams and be the biggest thing and or you know, like, you should be happy or you should, you should. It's like, man, there is so much kingdom changing power in a man and a woman. Or a woman, or. It's just faithfully serving, you know? And, uh, yeah.

And, and so I would just just say like, to all you worship blues out there. I, I, I know it personally. Also got many friends, even family in, in church, um, full-time capital INM ministry as they say. And I know it's been a hard. Um, last couple years, and I know things are looking different and probably will forever have changed because of the last couple years, but I just wanna say thank you for your faithfulness and I'm praying a prayer that God would just like root in you, such a faithfulness to his word and to the calling in your life.

Um, because we need it. Like I. I, I, I'm, I don't on, I'm not on staff at a church. I go to a church and that's where I get, like, filled up some. My, my buddy Brandon is one of, and another guy named Isaac. Those are the two worship leaders at the church I go to, and they're, they're awesome and they lead us in worship and I just, They, they were there when we were like meeting outside in like this courtyard in San Diego, and like hardly anybody was coming and they're still there.

And that I was so thankful to show up and have someone lead me into the throne room and remind me of God's grace through song and remind me of God's greatness through song. And, and I just, I can say firsthand like we need it. Like maybe some church, some chairs are open. Yeah, maybe some responses. Less passionate than they were.

Like some people need to, I think people need to relearn what it means to be in church community and relearn what's to sing. I was even talking recently with some friends from Jesus culture, um, and they're, that, that, that lead at their home church, and that's a, that's a passionate church. They're known for worship, but they said like almost half the church are new people.

And, and they, they don't know the culture of Jesus culture. They're just coming cause Right. Right. You know, and so they're, they're in the process of reteaching, Hey, like, we're a church that extravagantly worships, like this is, this is a place where we, we freely lift our hands. And, and so they started worship nights and they started digging in and they started making sure their leadership was up front, like displaying like, Hey, We are, we are proud of our king and proud we boast in Jesus.

And this is how we do it through our song. And, and, uh, and so it might take a little bit more like digging your heels in and reteaching and relearning and rediscovering what it means to sing together as a community. But man, we need it so much. So thank you for your faithfulness. Um, in, in no time. It's crazy.

It just, in no time at all me and. and Steven will be high fiving in heaven, you know, in no time at all. Yep. And, and the thing that's gonna matter is like obedience and faithfulness, you know? And, uh, and, and, and just, it's just so, I just, hopefully that encourages you just to take a deep breath, know that God is with you and, and keep going man.

That's awesome, man. Thank you for that. I'm encouraged. I'm ready. I'm excited now. Awesome. So that's, that's awesome. Well, dude, thanks for the time today, man. Thank you for, for being willing to, to spend a little time with us and just pour into, to other people and, and thanks for what you do. Uh, you know, you, you are writing songs that people resonate with and they're able to, to meet Jesus through those songs, and that's a really, really powerful thing.

So if you don't hear it enough, thank you for what you do. Cause it's, it's super helpful. Thanks, man. I appreciate you.

Man, I love what Phil said in that interview about identity and value. I think it's so important to differentiate the two because it, identity connected to your work isn't always a bad thing over identity probably is and value is. But um, that was just a really powerful moment. And then the reminder that God is always in control and no matter what you're going through today, what you're processing at your church or in your job, uh, Volunteer team, God's in control.

He knows what's on the other side of this, and he's not surprised that you're leading in this season. He's not surprised that you are in this season. And actually he planned it that way. So rest assured and take courage and strength and the idea that God knew you were gonna be doing this and walking through this, and he actually planned it that way and he planned for you to be the person in this seat at that.

Thanks for tuning in man. If you enjoyed today's conversation, I would love for you to share it with one person if you could. Um, make sure you tag us on any social posts and make sure you tune in next week when we have another awesome guest worship leader. We'll talk to you soon.